…or, The Red Flannel Diaries
“We were going to have a smoke,” Violet said when Barley calmed down a bit. “You want to join us?”
“I don’t know,” Barley said. “Mack was in the nexus when I ran into her.”
“We can go first,” I said. “Or we could go out the other door and go around the long way.”
“Why don’t you two just go? I’ll be fine up here.”
“Oh, you shouldn’t be alone right now,” Violet said. “And, also, to a lesser extent, you could stand to air out a bit.”
“Oh!” Barley said. She sniffed at her shirt. “I guess this is kind of dirty. Could I borrow a shirt, James?”
“Sure,” I said. “What do you want, a t-shirt?”
“Do you have a flannel shirt?”
“Yeah,” I said. I went to the closet, watching her peel off the dirty undershirt. My cock, already half awake from Violet’s display, poked out of my open fly. Barley put her hand on it as I handed her a red flannel shirt.
“Thank you, James,” she said. She tried to slip one arm through the sleeve while slowly tugging on my meat, then gave up. She let go, sank to the floor, and slipped her mouth over it instead.
A woman in a man’s shirt being sexy isn’t just a cliché. It’s true. A spontaneous blowjob while she puts it on just adds to the strength of the image.
“I’m going to have to start coming over more often,” Violet said. I’d forgotten she was there. “The view’s interesting from outside.”
I finished in Barley’s mouth. She wiped off her lips. I helped her to her feet.
“Thank you, James,” she said again. “I think I needed that. Comfort food.” She giggled. “It took me a while to come around to oral sex, you know.”
“Really?”
“It seemed, for lack of a better word, counter-productive,” she said. “And less than mutual. But not all sexual enjoyment is orgasmic.”
“You still aren’t going to catch me letting anybody shoot their junk in my mouth,” Violet said.
“You watched me fantasize about it, though,” I said.
“Yeah,” she said. “That’s hot. In reality? No.”
“I think you’re an extreme version of what many people go through with porn so readily available,” Barley said. “People are viewing sex from an external position and then fantasizing about it, long before they’re having it. Then when they do have it, the experience—the physical sensations, the way their partner moves—doesn’t conform to their expectations the way the fantasy does. Some people realize that this is because the real thing’s better, but some people are just disappointed.”
“See, I get what you’re saying because I get a lot of fantasies from people who clearly don’t know what it feels like,” Violet said. “Even really how it’s done. You’d be surprised what some guys our age think a pussy looks like. But I also get to feel how it feels. It’s fine, but I don’t want that in my own skin.”
“Fair enough,” Barley said. “But I wonder if it might not help to talk to—”
“Stop,” Violet said. The word reverberated in my head.
“Okay,” Barley said. “Sorry. I guess that’s a personal subject.”
“There’s nothing wrong with me,” Violet said. “I’m the way I’m supposed to be.”
“Sure, okay,” Barley said. “Everybody should be comfortable in their own skin, I guess.”
“On that subject, not that you aren’t fun to look at, but you really need to get dressed if we’re going downstairs,” I said.
Violet looked at Barley.
“Do I?” she asked.
Barley shrugged.
“Might be polite,” she said. “But if you aren’t worried about your privacy, I don’t see why anybody else should be. It’s like leaving your blinds up. If you don’t care who sees your bedroom, why should anybody else?”
“Well, I’m getting dressed,” I said, zipping my pants. I grabbed a shirt from the open closet and pulled it on, buttoning it up. Barley tied hers together as a halter under her breasts, barely covering them.
“You want to try a pair of my boxers?” I offered on impulse. The picture had popped into my head. It wouldn’t be denied.
Barley blushed beet red. There was an image to cherish.
“Oh!” she said. “I’m not sure I should.”
“It doesn’t have to mean anything,” I said, remembering Violet’s projected thought.
“It’s not that,” Barley said. “It’s just—oh, what the hell. I guess I can try it.”
“Go ahead and pick one out,” I said, gesturing at my dresser. “Top drawer.”
She went. It was dead sexy watching her ass as she leaned slightly forward to pull out the drawer, and then to look into it. It was sexier watching her pull the red and white plaid shorts on over her long, well-tanned legs. The boxers and shirt went together so well they might have been an outfit.
“You want some cleaner socks, too?” I offered. The ones she was wearing were filthy, with dust and dirt and grass stains.
“No, they’ll just get dirty again,” Barley said. “I was surprised they did, but I guess it makes sense when we don’t normally wear them. It’s a shame, because I really like how they feel on my feet. Where do shoes come from?”
“What?” I asked
“Shoes. Do you buy them the same place you buy clothes, or do you have to get them specially made?” Barley asked.
“Uh, there are shoe stores, but department stores sell both,” I said.
“Oh, I didn’t know,” Barley said. “It seemed like everybody’s shoes are different sizes, and they aren’t as flexible as clothing, so I thought maybe each one had to be—I’ll shut up now.”
“No, I guess it’s a natural question, if you’ve never dealt with them before,” I said.
“So, you ready now?” Violet said. She yawned. “I think I’m going to need a good buzz going if I’m not gonna crash all day.”
“You’re seriously going to do this,” I said.
“Yes, I seriously am,” Violet said.
“Okay.”
Down we went, Violet naked and Barley wearing my clothes. Once we were out of the room, my eyes drifted back from Barley’s flannel-clad parts to Violet. I didn’t know what had changed, but she seemed a lot more like my fantasy version than the girl who was just hanging out while just hanging out.
“You’re so oversexed that nudity in private isn’t transgressive any more,” Violet said. “But now that we’re in public, it’s exciting. Even though nobody’s awake to see.”
“I’m not oversexed,” I said. “I’d be sick of it if I was.”
“What do you call it, then?”
“Sufficiently sexed to get by, but still well under the upper limit of tolerability.”
Barley giggled. I smiled. She put her hand on the back of my jeans. The coast was clear when we got to the nexus so we just went out to the regular smoker’s area. My preference would have been the more secluded stairs, but Violet wasn’t interested in hiding.
Barley cleared her throat once I had my cigarette lit. She pointed at my crotch. I was past the point of being embarrassed by the severe tenting that was going on.
“Would you like me to take that?” she asked.
“Uh, thanks, but no,” I said. “I think we’re being transgressive enough.”
“Okay,” she said. “Offer’s good anytime, though.”
“Thanks.”
“So what’s this dragon thing?” Violet asked me. “It’s not the show you went to see, is it?”
“Same troupe, I think,” I said. “I don’t know if they’re doing a show or not. I’d guess at the very least they’re not having the whole band and everything. I don’t know. My herbalism professor told me about it.”
“It’s a whole conservation and awareness thing,” Barley said. “They’re going to be doing some flying, but mostly it’s so students can see what an LWD looks like up close.”
“LWD?” I asked.
“Lesser winged dragon,” Barley said. She turned her head down and gave an abashed grin. “Sorry. I kind of immersed myself in the literature back at the start of the term, when I signed up for this. Gah! I’m so glad you reminded me, I would have totally forgotten. Anyway, the LWDs are in trouble in the wild because they need such a large hunting radius to sustain themselves, and they’re usually slain as soon as ranchers start encroaching on their territory. I think it’s great that you support them, James.”
“Uh, thanks,” I said. “To be honest, I don’t know a lot about the subject. The guy I’m seeing took me to see their concert and I thought it was cool.”
“Oh, well, that’s still something,” Barley said.
“I got that tattoo because of it, though,” I said. I reached for my shirt buttons. “You’ve seen it, right?”
“Oh, yes, she’s very pretty,” Barley said.
“It’s supposed to ‘wake up’ sometime soon,” I said. “Then I’ll be able to bring it to life.”
“That should be cool,” Violet said. “I’d get a tattoo, but I’d have to do it with transfer paper. And it would have to be of a shapeshifter because I wouldn’t want the same thing on me all the time.”
“They do make temporary tattoos,” I said.
“Yeah, but that takes premeditation,” Violet said. “I don’t want to have to have a unicorn on hand just in case I want one tomorrow.”
“So, why naked?” Barley asked. “I mean, I’m not saying it’s a bad look, but you’re not turned on by it.”
“No,” Violet said. She spread out her arms and spun around. “I’m not. I just don’t feel like wearing clothes.”
“Well, it suits you, and if I had my way you could do that whenever you wanted,” Barley said.
“Thanks,” Violet said. “My mom didn’t like making me wear clothes, either. I spent pretty much a whole year naked, around when I was three. It was only when school started that I had to start keeping stuff on, and by the time I was old enough that it would be an issue for everyone I kind of got out of the habit.”
“Did you grow up in a commune or something?” I asked.
“James!” Barley said.
Violet just laughed.
“A very small one, maybe,” she said.
“Well, I think your mother sounds like a very special person,” Barley said.
“Yeah, that’s the word I’d use, too,” I said.
“You know I can light things on fire with my mind, right?” Violet said.
“Okay, James, seriously, stop,” Barley said.
“No, it’s okay,” Violet said. “I knew he was thinking it before he said it.”
“Okay, but making fun of mothers is just not cool,” Barley said.
“Sorry,” I said.
“No, seriously, it’s cool,” Violet said. “I have a crazy, crunchy hippy mom. I know. It doesn’t bother me. But can we get back to the dragons?”
“Okay, yeah,” I said. “So, what are you actually doing?” I asked Barley.
“Leading one of the mock dragons around in a harness,” Barley said. “I have experience with animals, so I get a good job. I’m also on standby for healing, if somebody’s stupid.”
“They put them in harnesses?” Violet asked.
“I think they have to, with so many new people around,” Barley said. “They brought one of the mocks in to class for us to see. He was cute, but excitable. I’d like to see about getting some of them back home when I graduate. Did you know that some orchard growers keep domesticated mock dragons? They’ll eat pests of all sizes but leave the fruit alone. They’re really efficient hunters, too.”
Violet was looking a little green around the gills again.
“Sorry,” Barley said. “I should probably mention that we’re going to be feeding the guys on premises throughout the day, too. Little cut up bits of meat, mostly, that kids can toss to them, but there are also going to be some hunting demos with birds and rodents.”
“Yeah, that’s cool,” Violet said. “Nobody ever said ‘nature, vegan in tooth and claw’.” She laughed. “Maybe I can get a mock mock dragon, that lives on tofu.”
“Or a dragon tattoo,” I said. “They’re low maintenance.”
“Yeah,” Violet said.
Off to our side, the door opened, and another group of students came out. Half a dozen, mixed evenly between male and female. The two guys who made up the tail of the group both glanced our way and then did a double take. They laughed and elbowed each other. One of them muttered something to the other one.
“Yeah, you’re saying that but you’re both memorizing what you’re seeing,” Violet said. She gave her belly a slap.
“You know you’re not fat,” I said.
“Don’t,” Violet said.
“No, I’m serious,” I said.
“I am, too,” Violet said. “Fat’s a relative term, like short or tall. Everybody can look at two people and say who’s taller, but nobody’s gonna agree on what ‘tall’ is. Barley’s fatter than Kira. I’m fatter than Barley. Missy’s fatter than me. Marlot’s fatter than me. So, I’m not ‘that fat‘, but so is everybody, where ‘that fat‘ is defined as ‘too fat for your personal tastes’. Those guys like to act like anybody whose stomach isn’t concave is too fat to be seen in public so I am that fat for them. I’ve got a poochy little belly and a big fat ass, but I’ve got a narrow waist and shoulders so I’m not ‘that fat’ for you.”
“I wouldn’t care if you were that fat,” I said.
“You wouldn’t be a dick about it, but if I was wider across but had the same belly and ass, instead of telling me how fat I’m not, you’d be telling me how much it doesn’t matter,” Violet said.
Barley was looking at Violet like she’d fallen in love.
Try not to be jealous, Violet thought. She’s not my type.
ook
Oh look, an update.
You know I can light things on fire with my mind, right?” Violet saida
no a needed at the end there methinks.
also <3 VIOLET!!
E
Nifty, another update. How odd and unexpected, but also nice.
Nice. Violet’s point about relativity is spot on. It’s also fun to see more of likable Barley.
“You know I can light things on fire with my mind, right?” Violet saida
…said.?
So we learn more about how Barley “lied” to Violet. She just told the truth as she saw it. That this had a somewhat loose relationship to the facts hasn’t occurred to any of our trio.
Violet seems to have some issues.
So, apparently neither Violet nor Jamie realize how “naughty” Barley is being, or how unusual it is for a nymph to wear clothes.
Away from Harlow, Barley seems more stable.
I’m worried for Violet now. As casual friends, she and Barley are fine, but I don’t think having her as a roommate would end well. Violet doesn’t acknowledge mental boundaries, but Barley doesn’t understand physical ones.
Right, nothing at all wrong with walking around in public naked in flagrant disregard to accepted norms and spontaneously masturbating until you’ve squicked your roommate into wanting a change of rooms because that’s how you’re supposed to be, you special snowflake you.
Not that Violet doesn’t have her moments of awesome.. but she can be a real flake to. Granted the ‘keep hammering that square peg into the round hole until it breaks or it fits’ approach alluded to in Violet’s kindergarten story didn’t sound like a good idea, but more and more I’m thinking Violet’s Mom running screaming in the opposite direction when raising her wasn’t such a hot idea either.
Okay, so, the more I think about it, the more I wonder about the progression of Barley’s… fall. My guess is that her attempted rape of Mack is what caused it since rape is probably unforgivable for a nymphly being. And once fallen she started getting dirty and wearing clothes, right? It’s not like she was kicked out for wearing the clothes, they just reflect her already fallen state right?
Also, power to the pooch!
Also… I can kill you with my brain.
hehehe. good chapter
Barley’s… interesting.
“I’m have to start coming over more often,” Violet said.
-I have to?
“It seemed, for lack of a better, counter-productive,”
-For lack of a better word?
“I’m the way I’m supposed to be”
Synesthetic and sensory defensive, but comfortable enough to accept herself as different rather than defective…I think Violet just became my favourite character after Two…
@Leah 12 caught the mistakes I was going to alert you to. I think Violet has the right to do whatever she wants to. I walk around in my skivvies all the time when I’m in my apartment. The dorm is like her apartment, so I see no problem. Also, if a nymph can wear clothes, a Violet can choose not to.
Barley is now the
“Nymph in the Red Flannel Shirt”
Skirting the issues
“Barley There” undies:
Red and white plaid boxer shorts
Is flesh fry favor
Naked Violet
Is a ray of sunshine for
For lovestruck Barley
@Les
Except, she’s psychic. Just visiting a dorm at night enough to see how over sexed some people can be, and she gets a front row seat to all of it. Of her quirks, I think that’s one I can forgive.
As for clothing; if it wasn’t that cold here right now, I would wear any either. But electric heat can’t keep up with this cold.
It’s almost frightening how much more likeable Barley is than Amaranth given this POV.
I really don’t like Violet…there, I said >>
Actually, Violet (and Barley, too), it’s not just about what you’re ok with doing. You have the duty as a person living in a culture that sees the wearing of clothes as acceptable in public to do just that. The difference between walking around in your skivvies in your apartment and walking around naked in your apartment with your lights all glaring and the blinds open is huge.
In a place where people accept and accede to the idea of not wearing clothes, fine. Not? It is part of the accepting of living in a society and taking part in society’s benefits (such as they are) that you adhere mostly to that society’s rules of behavior in public. Now, I’m not saying all rules are right and perfect and wonderful, but I do think there has been a general laxity about public standards of behavior in the past 60 or so years. My boyfriend and I have been talking about this lately. For instance, I find it an absolute shame that dancing for most Westerners has become a completely sexualized behavior. No one knows how to dance in formalized patterns anymore, except maybe hispanics, and not even many of the younger kids there!
It’s the same problem I have with Mack and Amaranth humping in public. You don’t have the right to push your will on others without their consent! I would find the sight of two people having sex attractive in some settings and completely off-putting in others. I guess it’s a matter of, “Do I get to choose whether I have to see it or not?”
Do I just sound like a giant prude or is this making sense to anyone else?
@Quin
Hello, Dee’s psychic too, and living in arguably an even more sexually charged dorm than Violet.
It’s obviously not impossible for subtle-artists in-general to learn how to ‘tune-out’ stuff, more and more it seems to me that Violet refuses to learn any form of discipline over her abilities because she’s unique and special and perfect the way she is… and it’s starting to grate on me.
Normally I don’t post comments, although I often read them. Now I feel like I should be saying something, because I really don’t agree with some of the stuff I just read in there.
@Jay_loo (18)
“You have the duty as a person living in a culture that sees the wearing of clothes as acceptable in public to do just that.”
There are cultures that find the beating or killing of gay people acceptable. This kind of reasoning would lead people to believe that it would be their duty to do just that. This kind of thinking sickens me. Whatever a certain culture or group of people believe does not make that thing the morally right thing to do – not even when they all hold it as acceptable.
If you feel that being naked is morally indecent, fine, that’s your opinion, but somebody’s duty and opinions should never be defined by the culture they live in, they should be the product of intelligent reasoning.
“It is part of the accepting of living in a society and taking part in society’s benefits (such as they are) that you adhere mostly to that society’s rules of behavior in public.”
I happen to wonder who decides what society’s rules about behavior are. There is no such thing as a conscious “society” that’s making up these rules that you seem to think are written in stone. “Society’s rules” are generally decided by popular opinion, which is not the same as being morally right. Right or wrong do not change based on opinions, if they did then what gives you the right to say your opinion is more important than somebody else his opinion. If a nation finds it acceptable to consider a minority to be inferior to them, it does not make this right – even though they hold the “popular opinion”. Another thing I cannot grasp is who should decided what “adhere mostly to that society’s rules” should mean. Who gets to choose what “mostly” means, is the wearing of clothes excepted? Is discrimination excepted? Is murder excepted?
“You don’t have the right to push your will on others without their consent! I would find the sight of two people having sex attractive in some settings and completely off-putting in others. I guess it’s a matter of, “Do I get to choose whether I have to see it or not?””
You’re right, people do not have the right to push their will on others. In this regard however, you do have a choice whether you look at it or not. You can choose to look the other way, they never forced you to stare at them.
My comments also apply to Les’ (9) notions of “disregard to accepted norms”.
People have the right to form their own opinion, and you might not agree with me, but I hope that you are able to see the flaws in your reasoning and arguments.
As for my personal opinion on Violet, I think that she’s a really nice person. She is kind, intelligent and not afraid to be different and make up her own opinion. I might not always agree with the things she says, but I really like her character.
@jay_loo
You don’t sound like a prude at all. There is something to be said for adhering to social norms. If someone wishes to be nude in public, well, there are places in which one can do just that. There’s no need to inflict that upon people who don’t wish to see one’s naughty bits.
As for the dancing, I keep telling my fiance we need to take dancing lessons and he looks at me like a deer about to be hit by a large truck. Then again, I lack the coordination to even be able to do the grinding in a sexy or non-silly looking manner.
Is Barley falling in love with Violet? Come to that, as beings who are supposed to be recipients of the lust and spooge of men, without discrimination or favour, does that mean that a nymph would be more likely to find romance with a woman, as the relationship will not automatically default to sex, and she has the ability to choose?
In the whole nudity thing, there are points on both sides. I generally go around my greenwood in just my grey-furred hide, but when I have to visit nearby towns, I usually end up putting on something. The farm folk in the vicinity of the greenwood can go either way, but don’t have problems with unclothed forest-dwellers dropping in on them. As you’ve probably guessed, my hide is suitable for all weathers. The last time that cold was a problem for me, a white dragon was involved.
Violet’s problems from nudity will come from the university authorities, and the attitudes of others. As well as those who expect conformity to a standard of behaviour, there will also be the sort of people that Thoreau doesn’t respect, who will happily ogle pornography, and shout lewd suggestions when suitably drunk, but will be put out by the sight of a naked woman in the outdoor smoking area. Such people will also make assumptions about the reasons for such nudity, and the nature of person exhibiting it, which could cause problems in future (unless the nude person is Jill Callahan, for instance).
The gap between imagination and reality doesn’t help. The only way to close this gap is to gain experience, which is the sort of thing that Amaranth’s proposed co-op brothels could help with. This gap also appears in between the experience of looking at porn and seeing a naked person in a public place. Again, it’s not a problem if you’re used to such things.
—-
We have, at last, a piece of dialogue that could indicate that Violet can read Barley.
In fact, it looks like a two-way exchange: Barley read Violet’s desires, Violet saw the question forming in Barley’s mind and cut her off.
On the subject of dancing, here are the circles in my Venn diagram: fun (enjoyment of your own movement), sex-related (vertical expression of horizontal desire), convention (we’re dancing, here, this way, because everyone else is and it’s the done thing) and, as an outside relation, performance (I’m dancing so someone else can watch). These can intersect in all possible ways, i.e. sex-related + convention (Esme’s cheek is against mine, her breast is squashed against me, her parents are watching, but we’re waltzing at the ball, so it’s all right as long as my erection doesn’t show).
Feel free to discuss. >:=)>
@Les
Right, but most subtle-artists and Dee in particular seem to grow up in areas where people have closed their minds to each other. Imagine, growing up around people who can read your mind if it’s open, but when you try to read theirs you hit a brick wall. I think Dee learned quick that it was not polite to read other people.
Violet, otoh, didn’t get that. Non subtle-artists don’t seem to have those barriers, so she grew up with open access to other peoples minds. If, and her back story seems to suggest it, no one ever told her that she shouldn’t read other peoples minds, how would she have learned about that boundary?
It’s all a difference in education, I think. Violet never learned those boundaries. I wouldn’t hang out with her much, but I can’t find fault in that.
@Caesura
Ay, but there’s the rub, why are they considered naughty bits? I don’t like wearing clothes if it’s warm enough for me not to, and it’s not a sexual thing. It’s a comfort thing for me.
I want to be able to take my shirt off in public without people freaking out. I want to be able, on a ridiculous 103 degree day, to be without a shirt. The male-bodied around me can do it, why can’t I?
Because I have breasts. And for reasons I don’t really understand, American society as a whole hypersexualizes breasts. Why is it so necessary to make other people comfortable in a society that you don’t agree with? Flagrant sexual acts I find disrespectful in public, but how does my casual nudity hurt anyone?
@19, jay_loo
> In a place where people accept and accede to the idea
> of not wearing clothes, fine. Not? It is part of the
> accepting of living in a society and taking part in
> society’s benefits (such as they are) that you adhere
> mostly to that society’s rules of behavior in public.
> Do I just sound like a giant prude or is this making
> sense to anyone else?
It certainly does not make you a giant prude, and even to the question if you are prudish the answer has to be a guarded “yes and no”.
The yes is that, technically, you (and just about every in the world) are prudish in that you sexualise something that is not in and of itself sexual (i.e. nudity).
The no is that, as you already pointed out, nudity is not something that is acceptable in our respective culture (outside of closely described circumstances) and adhering to the cultural mores is hardly wrong in an of itself.
The underlying question that needs to be answered here is: Why should people feel there is something wrong with being nude, and even seeing nudity. There are practical reasons for wearing clothes, but very few social ones (and none of them particularly strong) that do not ultimately end up with either blaming the victim or circular reasoning.
This is however not a question that can be answered, except personally by people like Violet who decide that they see no reason to wear clothes and therefor do not when they do not feel like it.
Also we have to keep in mind that unlike in our reality, in the MUniverse there is a strong precedent against a universal nudity taboo. Granted it took some blackmailing by a greater divinity, but already Nymphs (and Fauns and Satyrs) are required by Mother Khaele to not wear clothes, and She forced the human authorities to accept that right. Violet could if she were confronted by irrate authority figures point at that precedent. (Even though there would be serious consequences for her when that defense would be accepted).
Eri
Am I the only one who hates Barley in this story, as well? I see so many comments about how she’s much more likable here, and much more stable…but I just don’t see it.
@28 wocket
I agree with you…Barley’s totally creeping me out.
I think Violet just became my favorite character in the ToMUniverse.
@28, Wocket
@29, TimWarp
Barley is not more or less likeable in this story. She is just victim of the reverse that happens to Mackenzie in Jamie’s eyes.
Give what we have seen through Mackenzie’s eyes her actions seemed not very nice at the least.
As seen through Jamie’s eyes we get to see the reasons for those actions that Barley has given (to) herself for what she did. She knew what Puddy was planning to do that evening and mistakenly assumed that since Mackenzie seemed to like her she would appreciate her being first. When Mackenzie violently disagreed she was upset by the rejection. And the second time she realised Mackenzie’s problem (hunger) and thought she had a solution for that. Again Mackenzie did not react as she expected.
Barley is not perfect and she certainly suffers from a very unnymphly affliction, namely jealousy of Amaranth but she is not outright malicious. In Jamie’s story she simply gets the benefit of the doubt, and Mackenzie gets the doubt of prejudice. In Mackenzie’s story the roles are reversed. Jamie is absolutely not a reliable narrator. He has his prejudices and a stubborn streak a mile wide, and has so far been shown unable to acknowledge either even when they were pointed out to him.
The truth, as the saying goes, is likely somewhere in the middle. Barley is lying to herself to a degree and Mackenzie is misunderstanding the nymph and grossly mishandling the communication. But neither what Mackenzie says, nor what Jamie says, should be taken at face value.
I can not remember if that has been explained so far what exactly brings Barley to wear clothes against one of the divine edicts that govern her existance, but Jamie for certain is in the wrong here. By pressing clothes on the nymph he is making things worse for her.
Eri
@31 and previous Barley comments
Superficially more stable.
We know she’s hiding/supressing major issues and guilt because she hasn’t come to terms with what she did to Mackenzie.
If you reread the Barley attempted rape of Mackenzie chapter, it’s clearly evident from the conversation she knows Mackenzie doesn’t want it, but she is determined to force herself on her, because of her jealousy of Amaranth. It’s not ambiguous. Given the way the dialogue is written there, there’s really no way to see it as a misunderstanding. Mackenzie is afraid to use force to stop Barley, and only the sudden entry of Puddy prevents an actual rape from happening.
The explanation of events she gave Violet and Jamie was a fairy tale.
@Quin
That’s just it, Violet lacks such education by Deliberate Omission. Violet avoids, and has been encouraged by her mother since an early age to avoid, any and all formal training in the subtle arts because it would ‘harsh her mellow’. If this lack of discipline means she squicks her roommate by making squishy at random intervals at night it’s her roommate’s problem, not her own, and that attitude sickens me.
@Aiten
Ah yes, because asking for consideration of the general public’s feelings when said public has a well-known nudity taboo before prancing about in the altogether is exactly the same as advocating the execution of homosexuals for the act of being homosexual.
While we’re discussing flaws in logic let’s examine your own, shall we? Society in most of North America considers it extremely, extremely, Extremely egregiously inappropriate and offensive to use the word ‘Nigger’.. I bet many of you cringed just reading that word. By your logic I should be able to greet people with a hearty ‘Good Morning Nigger’ whenever it takes my fancy and if I cave-in to societal pressure to stop I’m condoning the execution of homosexuals in the middle-east.
Shamelessly flouting someone else’s taboos is a dick move in any circumstance, though sometimes it is necessary. We see Rosa Parks as justified in sitting wherever she damned well felt like because Segregation was more dickish than her actions in opposition to it, and God(s) bless her for that. Is Violet justified in ignoring a nudity taboo and the resulting discomfiture it may cause to those around here simply for the sake of her own comfort and convenience? My opinion on the matter is, no.
@Eri
Jamie isn’t ‘pressing’ clothes onto Barley. He’s just offering them, something he sees as normal. He honestly dosn’t know that clothing is a big-time no-no for nymphs. He sees Barley dressed of her own accord, assumes it’s normal, and offers her replacements for her currently soiled garments.
He dosn’t seem to know very much about Nymphs in general, like their ‘categorical cleanliness’ which if he was aware of would be a big give-away that something was wrong with Barley given her clothes are soiled in the first place.
@Les:
People should be free to pursue their own happiness… with the stipulation that doing so at the expense of others’ pursuit is not allowed. The question is when are you imposing or being imposed on?
If I steal your possessions, injure you, or simply fart in your face, you can argue that I’m imposing on you and therefore your rights are the ones in violation.
If I am naked and you dislike seeing that… then who is imposing on who? You want to force me to wear clothes, I want to do something that might cause you to see me naked. This could be debated quite a bit… 50 years ago the answer would clearly have been that by being naked I was stirring lustful urges and that was the greater imposition. Today, I think many people would feel that your urges are healthy and you should deal with them and that making me physically uncomfortable is the greater imposition. I suspect the trend towards accepting nudity will continue.
As for the “n-word”… actually I do have the right to say that word to anyone I feel like. They have the right to avoid me or say similar words to me in response.
I just noticed that in the Master Update Feed, the Main Title and Subtitle for this chapter are one and the same. Instead of reading, ‘Clothes Make the Woman… or, The Red Flannel Diaries,’ it’s posted as ‘Clothes Make the Woman… or, Clothes Make the Woman.’
Oh Captain my Captain, now things are getting interesting.
Challenging accepted norms because you disagree with them is certainly valid, but the fact still remains that doing so sets one up as an antagonist. Using the ‘N-word’ freely is my right, as it is also everyone else’s right to have a poor opinion of me as a result and voice that opinion vociferously. If I don’t want that, I should just not use the ‘N-word’.
Is the nudity taboo more of an imposition on Violet than Violet’s nudity is an imposition on others? If Violet wears clothes when she dosn’t want to she alone is discomfited, if she forgoes clothes in an area where nudity is unwelcomed a lot more people are discomfited. We can argue back and forth all the live long day if their discomfiture is justified or if they’re just being silly gooses for not instantly recognizing the moral superiority of the nudist philosophy’s veneration of the beauty of the naked human form, but that dosn’t change the fact that they are still discomfited. But all that is moot anyway since Violet isn’t intending to make a statement about nudism or strike a blow against the implied irrationality of nudity taboos in the first place. She’s going naked because she wanna, and simply can’t be bothered to take other people’s opinions on the matter seriously.
Violet is a lot like Iason in this reguard. Society is about compromise, about achieving a moderate degree of consensus among it’s members on what conventions are and are not acceptable and maintaining these to ensure things go reasonably smoothly for everyone as a result. Violet and Iason are antethical to this. Iason actively twists society’s conventions around and uses them against itself to forward his own selfish aims, Violet simply ignores them outright.
Les: So in your mind making a statement about nudity is a “better” reason for going naked than a mere personal preference?
Maybe Violet tries too hard to be a unique glittering snowflake sometimes but I think this is a case of “fist vs. nose”. If I’m waving my fist around all the way over here and you’re “discomfitted” by it, you haven’t demonstrated your right to stop me. If I try to wave my fist where your nose is, that’s a different story.
For somebody else to say Violet needs to put on clothes, they have to demonstrate some real interest in the matter, some damage being done to them by her decision to go without them. Otherwise, she’s waving her fist with no noses in sight.
@ Les
Don’t accuse others of flaws in logic when yours has a hole in it.
The word “nigger” has a deeply emotionally hurtful context which is why people are offended by it. It derives from centuries of unapologetic racism, from violence and hate. It’s a racial slurt, and insult, a verbal attack, if you will. It is constitutionally permissible to use hateful words under free speech as long as there is no evidence of “clear and present danger”. You have as much right to use whatever words you like. Why should Violet care about other people’s opinions if she isn’t hurting anyone, has friends, and is happy?
Still, using hate speech is different than being nude in a public space.
It is impossible to know Violet’s motivation. But I will belabor this moot point anyway.
Violet ignores social norms and conventions. She doesn’t agree with them, so she doesn’t follow them. Just because she doesn’t write manifestos and is carefree and self-loving does not mean she isn’t making “a statement”. Or if you’re right, and she isn’t making a statement, do people have to make statements about general “society” if they want to do something taboo? Does this apply to piercings and tattoos?
Les:
Right, I think we can agree on that. How ever, standing on the street corner and yelling the ‘N-word’ is still something someone can do. Sure, it’s going to piss off someone, but that’s not only a personal reason not to do it, not a societal one. I think it was Lenny Bruce who actually did that.
I haven’t said I would be comfortable around Violet, or even sharing a room with her. But, and maybe this is where we differ. Her behavior doesn’t sicken me. She’s a person, I may not get her reasons, but what she’s doing would not impinge on me even if she was living next door. I may not like someone reading my mind, but if the real world gets psychics then I’ll study subtle arts and put up my own walls.
This. I would argue every issue is entitled to it’s own analysis on offensiveness/etc rather than a standard classification for them all. Each issue is generally not equal.
That said, I do like Violet as a character and I think she would be the sort of person I would enjoy hanging around. As far as I can see, no-one in this story is without flaws, and her lack of boundaries might be hers, which will irritate some and not others (like me).
I concur. =)
You have a right to do what you want, which includes being offended by others doing what they want. You can’t insist they stop, but that does not mean you have to pretend they didn’t do it.
So Violet is setting herself up for problems if she wanders around nude.
Les -
Keep the faith! (I’d give you Rep if we were on the HERO Board….)
@Merck
That is a wonderful argument against the validity of the nudity taboo, too bad it’s irrelevant. I’m not arguing about whether or not there should be a nudity taboo, I’m arguing whether or not Violet should adhere to social mores when she’s, you know, out amongst Society. (actually I’m much more peeved at her ‘meh’ attitude about squicking her roomate with her TK jilling-sessions than I am over the public nudity, but everybody’s jumping up and down about the public nudity angle so I’m responding.)
@Procrastinator
But advocating someone set public mores above personal convenience, in the same manner we ALL make little compromises every day as part of civilized society, is exactly the same as condoning the death penalty for homosexuality.
@Quin
Violet’s behavior doesn’t sicken me, it annoys me, but it doesn’t sicken me. What sickens me is her attitude (which likely fuels her more annoying behaviors) that she’s far too special and unique to sully her special uniqueness with self-discipline.
@Louise
Umm, thanks?
Irrelevant? No. It’s on topic. The answer to “Should we obey social mores?” is a question: “Who cares?” Not saying to be apathetic, but who is the interested party? What Violet wears (or doesn’t), the only person whose interests are affected are her own. So it’s only her mores that matter.
Oh, and I don’t see anything wrong with Violet’s attitude about her roommate’s squick. If you said “If she had better mental boundaries it wouldn’t have happened,” and I’d agree, but it did happen, and her attitude towards it is just that: it happened. She’s not going “OH MY GOD I CAN’T BELIEVE HOW NARROWMINDED TEMPURANCE IS!” or “THE NERVE OF HER!” She’s not blaming her for wanting to move out. She’s not even expressing surprise. It’s kind of a blase attitude towards the whole thing: here’s a basic incompatibility between two roommates, here’s an obvious solutoin – switch roommates.
To me, she’s treating it exactly the same as if it turned out one of them snored too loudly or whatever, and I don’t see how that’s a sickening response. Alien to my way of thinking, maybe. But I’m not sickened by alien things.
@Les
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply anything. I misread what you said in post 33.
I don’t get that from reading the chapter again. I don’t see her reaction as saying “I’m special so the rules do not apply to me.” I see it as “The rules are silly, they make no sense to me, and I’m not going to obey them. Anyone else can do the same.” So far, we haven’t seen anyone who has asked her to exhibit self discipline. Jamie hasn’t pushed her to back out of his mind, neither has Barley for all we know. So, how do we know she hasn’t got any? Because she masturbates in bed? Lots of people do. Temperance hasn’t asked her to quit, as far as we know. Temperance might not have even mentioned it, just thought about it. So she couldn’t win either way, she would upset someone by waiting for Temperance to ask her to knock it off, or cross that personal boundary and interpret someone else’s thoughts and try to do what she thinks they want.
@Merck
Why should Violet care about anyone’s mores other than her own? Why should she wear clothes when she’s in a venue that frowns on public nudity?
Why should I refrain from reading Hustler in Church, or the NRA Newsletter at a convention for the Brady Campaign against Gun violence, or the book of Leviticus in a Gay Bar? It’s Just Plain RUDE!
And it’s exactly that blase’ness I find so perturbing. It is NOT a basic incompatibility between roommates, it’s Violet not-caring how negatively her lack of self-discipline affects those around her. My feelings may change if/when Violet meets a subtle-arts professional and the confirm that yes, Violet can in-fact NOT ‘help it’, but we likely never will since Violet actively avoids subtle-arts professionals like the plague for fear they might ‘un-special’ her with their ‘rules’.
If I snore, and it’s something I honestly can’t help, and my roommate says they can’t handle my snoring and are moving out then fine, no foul on either side. If I act a jerk when I’ve been drinking, and I drink all the time, don’t wanna stop myself from drinking and don’t wanna get ‘help’ to stop drinking and my roommate says they can’t handle me being a drunken jerk and are moving out then I’M AN ASSHOLE!