…or, Bounded And Determined
I was on the stage in the amphitheater in the park. It was nighttime. Iason was there, standing at the edge with his back to the sky. He had a cape that he spread out like great billowing wings. The wind caught it, and he let it fall from his shoulders and be carried away.
He was naked except for his boots and his hat.
He took a step forward, off the low wall and onto the stage with me. I started towards him, but a hand fell on my shoulder. I turned to see the guy from the dance, the hot one who’d been with the Harlowe girl. He was stripped to the waist, and he was ripped. He was a lot less wiry with his shirt off.
He smiled a way no guy had ever smiled at me, a nice smile but an inviting one. I licked his stomach, up from his navel towards his chest. I kissed him over his heart, and he reached for his belt. His pants were gone before I knew it, revealing the largest cock I’d ever seen. I fell to it greedily. I had a fleeting thought that Iason might be jealous, but then I realized he’d appreciate head a lot more after he fucked me. That way was better.
I could feel Iason getting closer behind me, and I lifted my ass to him. He took it without a word, ramming himself home with incredible ease. He skewered me like a blade while I drank every inch of my hot guy’s cock. He filled my mouth and throat, and I would have taken more if he’d had it.
They pounded away at both ends of me until my mouth filled with seed. Then the guy pulled out, wiped himself off on my face, and turned around, offering me his ass.
This was a position I’d never had much luck with in real life; there were issues with timing, coordination, and comfort. Lying down or having something to brace against made it much easier. Standing up, it was far easier to take a guy in the mouth and one in the ass. Dreams and fantasies were a different matter. In my dream, we moved smoothly and easily into each other, while my guy’s massive hard-on pumped against my gripping hand.
We each came over and over again. I moaned Iason’s name, and then the other guy’s. I didn’t know what it was, but it didn’t matter. It was a dream, and I moaned it anyway.
I just barely knew it was a dream. The knowledge that I was moaning a name I didn’t know was what did it. It was okay. I would take a dream. The guy’s body had looked incredible with his clothes on. My imagination was probably the closest I’d get to seeing him with them off.
Though, if his girlfriend was bi, he might be, too.
I didn’t dwell on it. Thinking about something too much was a good way to end a dream, and this was like a sweet reward for sticking to my wands with Missy. It just kept going and going. We shifted, Iason pulling out of me and my guy pulling away. I turned around and fell to my knees, wrapping my mouth around Iason’s glistening meat. The other guy grabbed my hips and started plowing into me.
He was huge. Even in a dream, even with Iason opening me up first, I felt it.
I was confused and then annoyed when I was suddenly knocked out of the threesome by a noise. I sorted out what it was when another set of knocks came on the door. I remembered the loft bed just before I tried turning and slinging my legs over the side. My impatient visitor knocked more insistently a third time, and then pounded on the door before I could get down to the floor to it.
A check in the peephole showed Iason, scowling beneath the brim of his hat. I scowled back. Maybe I should have been grateful that half of my dream sandwich had just shown up in real life, but I’d just woken up. Gratitude had to wait on rationality.
I opened the door midway through the fifth set of knocks.
“Why did I have to knock so many times, Iamie?” he said. “It’s bad enough I have to wait on your doorstep when you aren’t home.”
“I was asleep,” I said.
“Whatever were you doing asleep?”
“Dreaming,” I said.
“Of me?” he asked, breaking out in a smile. I scowled harder. He had no business being right after ripping me out of that dream.
“I hope you have a good reason for knocking on my door in the middle of the night,” I said.
“The middle of Saturday night. There is only one good reason for being in bed so early on a Saturday night.”
“Yeah, well, I was tired and I wanted some sleep.”
“You can not be tired, Iamie,” he said. “I have not been here to tire you out.”
“What do you want, Iason?”
“You know the answer to that,” he said. “I want you.” He glanced down. “And I can see that you are in no position to refuse.”
“Don’t be so sure,” I said. “I may be horny, but I already turned down a shot at sex with one person tonight.”
“How wonderfully fortuitous,” Iason said. He grabbed the waistband of my boxers and pulled them down past my cock, which was either still hard from the dream, or hard again.
“Hey!” I cried, jumping back from the open door and out of his reach.
Iason followed, still grabbing for my shorts. I wound up on my ass as he yanked them down towards my ankles while I was backing up. My attempt to crabwalk out of the line of the sight of the door helped him in getting them the rest of the way off. I kicked at his hand, but he just grinned.
“Settle down, Iamie,” he said. “I am only here to fuck you.”
“You might wait for an invitation,” I said, scrambling to my feet.
“You are strangely ungrateful, considering I’m here to make your dream come true,” he said. He started unbuttoning his shirt.
“Khersis, will you at least close the door?”
He leaned backwards and caught the edge of the door on the heel of his boot, kicking it closed with a flick of his ankle. I took another step back away from him. My heart was pounding in my chest. Iason was so aggressive, so cockily self-assured. He hadn’t waited for a yes. I wasn’t sure if he would listen to a no. He was right, though. I had been dreaming about his cock inside of me. I wasn’t getting any less hard with him hounding me.
He was still fully dressed, except for his shirt being half undone. He looked up and down my naked body.
“What are you doing here, Iason?” I asked.
“There is a party at Treehome,” he said. “I was getting bored with it. There was a lot of fun to be had, but it all made me think of you.”
“How sweet,” I said sardonically. “And you just assumed I’d be up?”
“It looks as though I assumed correctly,” he said, his gaze fixed on my crotch. My dick lurched like his eyes were squeezing it. He took a small step towards me. “I want a key to your room.”
“They only gave me one,” I said. He stalked forward, slowly. I took a step back. My legs found the couch and I sat down to avoid tripping.
“Get another copy.”
“This is a single room,” I said. “They aren’t going to give me another key.”
“Then get one made, or leave your door unlocked.” He leaned in over me, his hand closing around my cock. “I don’t like having a barrier between us, Iamie.” He pushed his lips against mine, stroking his hand up and down my shaft a couple of times before he slid onto the couch next to me. “I should always have access. I shouldn’t have to wake up the whole floor when I decide to call on you.”
I turned and scooted back against the arm of the couch.
“So, basically, you want to be able to come into my room any time you want, when I don’t even know where yours is?”
“If you knew how to get to Treehome, you might go there,” he said.
“What if I wanted to?”
“I don’t want you to,” he said. “It’s for your own safety. Human men don’t recognize the charms of a pretty boy, but my housemates would take advantage of you.”
“Don’t you think I might have something to say about that?”
“Nothing effective,” Iason said. “This is all beside the point, Iamie. Give me your key.”
“Give you the only key to my room?”
“Yes. I’ll get it copied myself, if you do not want to do it.”
“What if I don’t want you to have a key?”
“Come now, Iamie,” he said. He tipped his head so that the brim of his hat covered most of his face, exposing only his knowing smile. “I just want to know that whenever I get an urging, I can satisfy it upon you, no matter what time it may be. I know you, Iamie. You cannot tell me that this thought does not excite you.”
“You don’t know me that well,” I said.
It did excite me, but that didn’t mean I wanted it.
“You have not yet been in a serious relationship,” he said. “So, some of this is new to you. But surely you must understand the importance of communication. If I cannot see you, I cannot communicate with you. I have needs. So do you. This way, we can both be satisfied.”
“I can satisfy my own needs,” I said.
“That may be well and good for you, but why must I resort to such measures?”
“It isn’t like you don’t have a tree fort full of willing guys to mess around with,” I said.
“All of them put together could not have a tenth of the effect on me as you alone do,” he said. Obvious flattery, but there could be some truth there. He had left them to come to me. “And elven boys have such attitudes,” he continued. “You are far more accommodating, Iamie. Even at your most frustratingly obstinate, you ultimately know your place. You know what your ass is there for. You know why the gods gave you lips.”
“You really don’t know how to quit while you’re ahead,” I said, shaking my head.
“And you don’t know what you want,” he said. “You’ve told me again and again to be honest, but when I present you with a gem of unvarnished truth, you glare at me like a fussy housewife.”
“Get out, Iason.”
He laughed. He was still right in my face. It was a very threatening position for somebody who’d been asked to leave to be staying in. It was very intimidating.
It made me angry.
“Wrong answer, Iason,” I said, shoving him off of me and getting to my feet. “We’ve gone over this. You don’t get to call me a whore and then fuck me.”
“I didn’t call you a whore.” He actually sounded confused.
“You all but did,” I said.
“Yes, exactly,” he said. “It is not my fault if you don’t make your boundaries clear.”
“Figure it out,” I said. “You said you like challenges.”
“Would it make a difference if I apologized?” he asked.
“It might make the difference between ‘fuck off forever’ and ‘fuck off for now’,” I said.
“I thought you might enjoy a little dirty talk.”
“That isn’t an apology,” I said.
“It just seemed to me that a boy who takes it from ass to mouth might like—”
“I like what I like,” I said. “But if letting you do one thing makes you think you can get away with everything, then I guess I’m not going to give you anything. One more try.”
“For?”
If I had thought he was fucking with me, I swear I would have thrown him out on his ass, physically.
“Apologizing,” I said.
“I’m sorry,” he said, taking off his hat. “I said what I said only for our mutual enjoyment, but it was poor judgment.”
“Okay,” I said. “I’m going to bed. I’ll see you in class on Monday.”
“What if I want to see you tomorrow?”
“I’m dealing with some stuff right now,” I said. “With Missy. If you want to listen to me talk about it—”
“No, no,” he said. “I think I can wait until Monday.”
“Goodnight, then.”
“May I at least give you a goodnight kiss?”
“I suppose.”
He put his hat back on and stepped forward, then stopped. I didn’t make a move towards him. He came closer. He reached around to put a hand high on my back, but as he embraced me, his hand dropped down and grabbed my bare ass. His other hand massaged my cock. I minded that a little bit. As the kiss lingered, I minded less.
“You’ve made your point,” he said, after releasing my lips from his. “You could let me stay.”
“I haven’t made my point if I do that,” I said, pushing his hand away. “Goodnight, Iason.”
“Goodnight, Iamie.”
I locked the door as soon as he left, so he would hear the lock, then laid down on the couch. I was too wound up to go back to sleep. Even if I could, I would never get that awesome dream back.
That was okay. Imagination was just as good. I closed my eyes and put myself back in the scene. I couldn’t remember exactly where we’d left off, so I started the whole thing over from the beginning.
A purple-scented presence, foreign but not unfamiliar, imposed itself on the scene. The thought came to me: What the hell is this sausage fest? Put me back into play!
Wait your turn, Violet, I thought back. I’m going to be up for a while.
I would dig a Violet bonus story. Does MoarMu do bonus stories? I forget… but Violet is very cool!
This is what surprises me: Iason knows that Jamie is seeing girls. That in fact he had a date with one that night. On his first trip to Jamie’s room, he said he may be up to that type of threesome. But I wonder how he would react to the scene if had walking in on Jamie & a chick. Yes, he whould have heard two in the room. I highly doubt that would have stopped him.
@ 51 Nohbdy
Dee is taking Subtle Arts classes, right? Isn’t it her minor? And since both she and Violet are freshmen, it is entirely possible that they’ve crossed paths. (Unless I’m remembering wrong and Dee is not, in fact a Subtle Arts minor. Anybody remember?) But I really want to see a bonus story where they meet. it would be interesting.
@Cupcake Crusader: Everybody has sex acts that squick them out. It’s only homophobia when anger/violence is directed against homosexual people, rather than the act banished to Not My Kink.
@David Argall: Your misogyny is as clear as Iason’s, and no more pleasant. Please take your bigotry and stick it up your ass.
I think openmindedness is pretty much mandatory for a psychick (misspelling intended) like Violet, seeing as she grew up amongst humans who have no mental training, and as such broadcasted their every surface thought to her… Either learn to laugh it up or run screaming into the wilderness
I might assume too much about other people, but I think a glance at most of our minds would be pretty… creepy…
Iason complaining about elven guys having too much attitude is priceless irony.
Jamie and Iason
Are both testing boundaries
Finding the limits
Jamie likes to mix
Fantasy and reality…
But keeps a firm grip
Mentally picture
A telepath mentally
Picturing you—Oops!
At the risk of exposing myself to all sorts of criticism/bitching/harsh words, I feel I need to step up in defense of David Argall.
I’ll admit, his statement was in poor taste, especially since he didn’t indicate whether or not it was a joke, but whatever happened to giving a person the benefit of the doubt? For that matter, what makes his statement that much worse (assuming it’s only a joke) than the girls that have things such as “boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” posted in their lockers? To my mind, that is worse, as it advocates violence as well as being sexist. (Yes, sexism against men is still sexism. It’s just more societally acceptable for some reason)
In any case, I have found many women to be a greater annoyance than men. I won’t say it’s an absolute or anything, but that’s how it is.
@58 Andy Actually I’ve come to the conclusion that DA has some troll in his webcestry, due to his tendency to occsionally leave comments that seem to have no purpose but to rile people up. He keeps it mild enough that I don’t think he is going to get banned, or even get many posts deleted, but I’ve stopped responding to his comments unless they seem to have a legitimate intellecual comment. I’m not stating that emotional comments are necessarily bad, just that this is how I seperate out the relevant comments of his to consider. I could be wrong about him, but this is how I perceive him.
Andy:
It’s not so much that he said that women are annoying (which was bad of him, because it generalizes 50% of human beings as being irritating pests), but that he followed that up by saying men should tolerate it to get sex. That reduces a woman to a sexual provider, instead of a friend or partner. It also reduces every loving relationship into a farce, in which the men are ‘tolerating’ their wives/girlfriends/whatever ‘annoying’ personalities purely for sex. I’m confident that my own marriage doesn’t work this way!
As for which gender is more irritating, that probably depends upon the gender of the person doing the judging. I personally find men to be more irritating, frustrating and difficult to work with. However, I would never say that calling a man a dick is a redundant statement. Not all men are. That’s the difference between a personal opinion and a bigoted pronouncement.
@ 53. Laurie:
Yes, Dee is minoring in the subtle arts. But I doubt she’ll run into Violet anytime soon because Violet isn’t taking Subtle Arts classes, though I suppose they could walk past each other in the hall and notice the other has mental training. (Hmm… now I want to know Violet’s major)
I like how you write the telepathic communication, AE. Though, now I’m wondering what sensations Hissy and Dee make in people’s minds.
#46 @Luddite
What is the connection between hippocampuses and theft? I’m completely baffled by your post.
Other than that, I kinda liked this post. I was entertained to spot that Jamie was dreaming though I suspect that his estimation of Ian’s body type is far off. Does anyone recall, off the top of their head?
I applaud Jamie for shooing out Iason. If his estimation that Iason’s also new to committed relationships, not letting the gorgeous elven bastard get away will that kind of bullshit will be good for him. Bastard can learn, eventually.
I’m very much looking forward to further Violet/Jamie interactions. Her parting shot was hilarious. Lo, I shall join in the clamour of the fans.
I would like to vote for Violet for girlfreind. She is ten times more likeable then Missy but then so are cold sores.
Here’s my vote for a “peeping tom” session between Jamie, Violet and Iason.
well, i like violet EVEN MORE now……she’s spunky…almost STEFF spunky
@Andy: You’re right, he didn’t indicate whether it was a joke, but as stated, he has a history.
“Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” is of course just as unacceptable a statement, and if a poster had said that, I would have called them out on it too. (Unless it was said, and I missed it, in which case: Shame on you, poster!)
Personally, I get along much better with men (usually) than I do with women, and I have very little tolerance for the cattiness that is more prevalent in women. But I would never go so far as to label all women as catty annoyances.
As for the sex part, LunarTaffy put it quite well.
What he said was demeaning and offensive, regardless of whether it was meant as a joke. And joking about this kind of thing only reinforces that it’s okay to think like this, it’s okay to treat women (or men) as objects solely around for one’s convenience.
The male hippocampus(sea horse) like the female marsupial has a pouch. Such a feature seems like the only place to keep a key that Iason would have had access to, hence my reference to Jamie’s lack of hippocampus ancestry.
@ 67 Luddite
If Jamie is the type to simply toss his keys on his desk or dresser as he walks into his room, I could see Iason grabbing it while Jamie looks the other way or something. Remember, Iason is an assassin. That’s like a NINJA. And ninjas are SNEAKY SNEAKY.
. . .Ok. I’m done being weird. . .FOR NOW!
@40 Greenwood Goat
I might be the loner, but I am one of those “conservative theomaniacs”, if you mean someone who’s a conservative, born-again Christian. And while I certainly don’t approve of guy-on-guy, girl-on-girl, or pretty much all of the sexcapades the ToMu characters get into, that doesn’t mean that I automatically think that they (hypothetically) or people like them are “screaming bender[s] with no more right to live on God’s clean earth than a weasel.” I find it pretty sad that you pull the same sort of crap on Christians that, admittedly, some professing Christians pull on the non-heterosexual community. Laughing at a whole group of people because of a perceived and preconceived notion of what they’re like is exactly what the non-heterosexual community (and just about every other minority group on the planet) fights against all the time, so please don’t turn around and do it back at other people.
Anyhow, AE, I just want to compliment you on the great storyline and characters which keep me coming back for more, even with all of that heathen sex stuff! (j/k, I can certainly survive being uncomfortable for a glimpse into, not just MU, but another world on earth!) Thanks for writing.
~Rattie
@Rattie:
You’re definitely not the only Born-Again Christian reading, no.
@ 67 Luddite:
Ah, that makes much more sense. I was imagining the larger mythical counterpart to the sea-horse, and was muchly confused.
Likewise, I still suspect that Iason found a way to steal Jamie’s key somehow.
Violet’s still awesome. She deserves to be taken out for coffee.
“wait your turn violet, I’ll be up for a while” that’s just brilliant. I love it!!!
@50, De:
I hope Iason pulls his prickness stunts on Dee, I wanna see her turn his junk inside-out with her mind.
Rattie:
Amen to that! haha, and i say that even to secular stuff. it’s a very useful word.
More people need to think like this, christian and non-christian alike.
ha ha is it weird that i think Violet is my favorite character??
@ 69 Rattie: I second AE; I’m one of them. Have a nice day!
@Rattie
Hi there!
You’re not spewing bile and trying to get this site taken down, and seem miffed at the thought of being lumped in with people who would, so you’re not a theomaniac. As I said, homophobia is only a problem when it leads one to express hatred or violence. Some Christians follow this sort of line, disapproving homosexuality in their own minds, but leaving it to God to judge and deal with homosexuals. I think there’s a quote there:
Of course, there are theists of various sorts who regard homosexuality as a disease, which, with enough diligent persecution, could be eradicated. And there are some who state that you can catch homosexuality or (I kid you not) get infected by gayness demons if you do immoral things like reading literature with homosexual scenes. Just to reiterate, it hasn’t happened to me yet. >:=)>
Some evangelists would contend that by preaching against homosexuality they are leading the benighted homosexuals away from Hell. Counter to this is the concept of salvation through divine grace. In this, all men are condemned, incapable of doing anything that would merit their admission to Heaven. The only hope is that God will grant them His grace, which is a gift, freely given, entirely undeserved and entirely God’s decision. So, ultimately, nobody can point to an attribute or action and say that it will result in damnation.
I actually knew a gay born-again Christian back in college. He was a very nice guy, well-balanced and quite sure that his homosexuality was an integral part of him. He was also certain his homosexuality was not being inflicted on him by Satan (and all his little wizards), and that if God had intended him to reject his gayness, He would have told him so by that time. The other members of the college’s Christian Union varied in their attitude to him. Some did tell him that he was going to burn in Hell, but some did moderate their views over time. I’m sure he was mentioned in a lot of prayers while he was there!
So, I’m sorry if you thought my remark was aimed at you, or thought that I had the born-agains and the bigots conflated. I don’t know about any perception among Christians that they are having to fight against prejudice (or why they had to burn all those Beatles records), but atheists and agnostics tend to see things the other way round: waves of unreason forcing back science and rationality, ranting, manipulative demagogues swelling their congregations and coffers, the President of the United States denigrating the citizenship of atheists (yes, that last one actually happened with Bush senior). Science and reason and religion can co-exist. Up until the mid-20th century, pretty well all the scientists were believers and it was only the philosophers who dabbled in atheism. I don’t know whether science can disprove God – it certainly can’t cancel out belief – but that hasn’t stopped the theistic establishment from trying to halt its progress at various times.
Anyway, enough chatter. It’s gone midnight and there will probably be a new chapter soon. Let’s publish a clarification. An expansion, even:
***
And if there is anyone reading who thinks that Jesus’ father hates gays:
1. Enjoying yaoi scenes does not and will not make you gay.
2. Being gay is not a one-way ticket to your Hell.
3. Your God decides who goes to his Heaven. And he wants everyone to end up there! He is omnipotent, nothing can lay constraints on Him, and He has revised the rules before (e.g. the New Testament) and may do so again.
***
There you are.
p.s. The “screaming bender” quote and the “all his little wizards” quote come from Blackadder II.
Glee!
Oh, if Ian only knew how Iamie was fantasizing about him… hee.
I really thought he was going to play bitch there, but he (finally) stood up admirably. No pun intended. Good for him!
Violet FTW!
^_^
as much as i can understand peopel going omg violet is so cool, does anyone else feel that his privacy is being invaded? hes fantasy, doing one of the most private things you can do and someone is ivading his mind trying to steer it a certain way?
Ok, in light of this discussion about religious views and homosexuality, let me just express the 4 reasons why I’ve never worried about going to hell for being gay:
1. This is a big one obviously; I simply don’t believe God (or gods) exist. Not believing in a higher power that can send you to eternal damnation makes it a hell of a lot easier not to worry about said eternal damnation.
2. If there is a God, being the omniscient and omnipotent master of the universe he’s supposed to be, why in the world would he even care about who I sleep with? It’s not like being gay is going to open the gates of hell… If that were the case, it would already have happened long ago.
3. If God for some reason that is completely beyond me does care about my sexuality and is some kind of homophobe, why did he create me this way? Because, I know it wasn’t my choice…
And if it was in fact Satan and his little minions that turned me gay, most decidedly without my permission, why didn’t the supposedly almighty God not prevent this? Or undo it? Apparantly we’re back at nr. 2: he simply doesn’t care.
4. If God is a homophobe who only created me as a gay man (or let me be turned into one by the devil) to test me, well, ok, I failed the test, I’m not perfect. If he actually wants to send me to hell for failing that test though, despite the fact that me being gay doesn’t hurt anyone and I’m a good, kind and decent person…
Well, I won’t say what I’d actually think about a God like that as not to offend the people around here who do believe in him, but suffice it to say that said God would neither deserve my respect nor my worship.
If God exists and is such a cruel (bleeeeep), I’d simply choose to reject him. I will not let myself be bullied around, not even by the big guy.
good lord, ae.
for being a chick, you sure do write some freaking wonderful male on male erotica.
i love that violet actually asked to be included in jamies maturbatory thoughts.
and that jamie actually responded with something very very sexy.
@ RdV
WELL PUT!!!
I’m also gay, and believe that if God hated gays, they simply wouldn’t exist.
I think lesbians and gay are Gods population control, just like AIDS and cancer.
Maybe there’s a reason we can’t find a cure?
6.8 billion miracles are enough.
Re: homosexuality and religion… my cousin is deeply, devoutly Catholic, and bisexual, currently living with his boyfriend. His logic is that since most Catholics eat food forbidden in the Bibile–e.g., rabbit and sea food/lobster–and are straight, he should be allowed to have sex with his boyfriend and not eat sea food. -shrug- Surely if God was that pissed off about it, we’d have some show of the Old Testament Sodom and Gomorrah-style fire and brimstone.
Addendum; I also have a serious problem with heterophobia, for the record. There’s a couple of gay boys and a lesbian in my class who insist on calling me (and everyone else who is attracted to the opposite gender) ‘breeder,’ ‘egg plant,’ or ‘sperm bank.’ There are very few things that piss me off more than self-righteous horse crap, no matter who it comes from–and it seems like, at least in my area, a lot of gay/lesbian people think homosexuality is better than heterosexuality. (And don’t get me started on the crap both homosexual and heterosexual people give bisexual people… eck.)
Thank God Jamie’s finally sticking to his wands with Iason. Sure, Iason’s not evil or deliberately abusive, but he’s a bully and frequently accidentally abusive. He needs to know it’s not okay, even if he only gets the message where Jamie is concerned. As for Violet, I like her okay, but wtf being in his head at random times? I’m not sure how I feel about that, just in terms of boundaries and all.
On the topic of homosexuality and religion:
First, a disclaimer stating that I don’t have any religious beliefs regarding homosexuality. Sleep with whomever you like, just leave me alone if you’re a guy, kthxbai.
Second, I understand the arguments that say “God changed the rules once, he can do it again,” or that it’s culturally dated, or that God would kick our asses if he had a problem with it. The only problem I see with those is a logic problem, and I really hope that no one takes this the wrong way. This is not something I believe currently, it’s something I believed when I was more “hardcore” Christian. Basically, the New Testament does speak out against homosexuality. It does so in such ways that I don’t believe saying something like “a Greek word for homosexuality never appears in the Bible” doesn’t discount it. (And I have heard that argument before. I don’t know whether or not it’s true, I’m afraid, as I don’t know Greek. I do know Latin, though, and I’ve perused the Vulgate, and English translations I’ve seen don’t seem to be far off in these spots) Now, I understand that you can say “Well, next to the verse in Leviticus, there’s one against wearing mixed fabrics. Is that still a sin?” To this I would say 2 things. 1: According to Christian theology, Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, making human beings pure and holy in God’s sight through faith. We can reject that, but basically, the Old Testament laws are kinda obsolete. 2: The New Testament does repeat a few things from the Old Testament. It says “hey, nothing’s ‘unclean’ anymore” but ot makes clear what we’re supposed to avoid. When trying to figure out what’s a sin, I found it easier to go to the New Testament rather than Old.
I hope this makes sense. I’m also going to put a reminder down here that I’m making no judgements on sin or lifestyles, just stating some beliefs that I don’t really even have anymore.
@striketiger
There are many, right or wrong, who would say that fantasizing about someone without their permission is invasive and dehumanizing. I’m sure that there is some truth there, depending on the attitude in which its done, but given that Jamie pretty much mentally shouted and invitation for Violet (knowing about her abilities, even) all’s fair here, I think.
We have yet to see enough of Violet to know how her flaws manifest, but she seems to know exactly what she’s doing here.
Really she might be an excellent foil for Iason- she has boundary problems as well, if in a different way, but so far has shown herself to not only understand that, but not be nearly as self-centered about the natural results of such.
Since this is already log winded I’ll tag on: even though she didn’t directly say it, that last conversation has made me think that a picture of her with an inquisitive look and the tag line “Do you know something that I don’t?” would be great icon or t-shirt (and sum up well what we’ve seen of her so far.)
@Andy
There’s no Biblical passage that people point at in the Bible to speak against homosexuality that can’t be read another way, New or Old Testament. Most of the ones that people favor refer more accurately to temple prostitution- which was a fertility worship practice that the Jewish people tried to actively separate themselves from- or irresponsible sex. Even the big ringer from Romans can be read to say that heterosexual people reverted to performing homosexual temple rights and that forcing themselves to act against their default orientations was what was unnatural.
In any case, Jesus’s ministry was marked by non-judgmental acceptance of sinners and outcasts, not any attempt to force them to conform to his views. He only spoke out against those that use religion and authority to serve their own means or inflict arm on others, a lesson that many of the vocal Evangelical leaders seems to have missed.
Some of this has been said before, but not me, so I’ll be redundant.
I like Violet. She obviously knows Jamie fantasized about her before and she wants more.
Is she invading or inappropriate? Not in my opinion. She (like Ian) “knocked on Jamie’s door.” He could have said “Go away Violet,” but he did not. Therefore, it is okay for her to watch/suggest/mentally communicate with him. I anxiously await the next scene with Violet.
What amazed me was Jamie’s lack of flinch when Violet showed up. I would expect a “What?” then a recognition of what was happening, unless he had experienced this before.
It is a good thing that Jamie broke up with Missy, because if Missy wants to be Jamie’s sole female partner, this Violet encounter would definitely not be in accordance with her wishes.
The New Testament, as we now know it, was mostly written by Saul of Tarsus after he changed his name to Paul.
With the growth of Christianity after the resurrection, Saul became one of the sect’s most bitter enemies. Following a miraculous conversion on the road to Damascus, he changed his name and became a major player in church hierarchy.
Contrary to the Gospels (written by people who actually knew Jesus) Saul/Paul declared that faith could only be expressed, and salvation found through a bishop’s intermediary (ie: a priest). About 300 years later, an ecumenical council meeting at Nicaea decided that Paul had the better understanding of God’s will.
@88, Karl:
A lot of people like to point out the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah as being proof of Phelps’ ‘God hates fags’ doctrine, but even that is open to interpretation. Notice in the passages of the story of Lot how much emphasis is given to Lot’s treatment of the angels who came to visit him. It’s been suggested that the punishment for Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t for immoral sexuality (from which we get the word Sodomy) but for abandoning traditional rules of hospitality. It’s much more polite to offer visitors foot-baths and kosher-treats than it is to hand-out Surprise Buttsechz.
@ Lez– Totally LOL-ing at the last line of your comment.
@ Luddite– I think Paul is actually seriously misunderstood. People tended to misinterpret his writings, and then used that misinterpretation as justification for their personal beliefs. Really, if you actually READ what Paul, you’ll find he’s not actually saying what so many people claim he says.
@Les
Absolutely- I just addressed Romans because of the NT context and because it’s one of the big favorites.
Really you can trace a huge part of the modern problem back to St. Augustine and his contemporaries, who were responsible for injecting the doctrine that people are evil and meant to suffer, so anything that’s pleasurable is bad too. It’s an attitude that’s not justified by scripture at all; only by their desire to turn the Church into a tool to control people rather than help them.
Lunar Taffy @60
Very nicely put; thank you.
Lacey @82
Ouch! I believe you meant well with that statement, but may I suggest it could easily be misinterpreted? An unpleasant person might well assume you meant to conflate the three things you mentioned, after all.
Andy @86
While I disagree with your interpretation of the bible, I consider it a personal issue, and I will politely refrain from argumentation on translation issues from a language neither of us know.
More relevantly, however, I will also note if you are going to base your behavior on the New Testament, you should also seriously consider Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, and the Beatitudes. Please note the Sermon is supposed to be Jesus’ actual words, as opposed to the words of a man (Paul) who never actually physically met Jesus. I refer in particular to where Jesus explicitly states divorce is adultery, and is not acceptable under any circumstances.
But do we see “God Hates Divorcees & Adulterers” signs and picket lines against those who commit adultery? No — there are too many of them. They are a majority in at least today’s US society. Therefore it seems to me that those who seek power through manipulation of others turn their focus to homosexuals mostly because they’re a minority group, and easier to pick on. It reminds me of the bumper sticker:
Incidentally, if you’re looking to live a good life according to the NT, the Beatitudes are a fine way to start. Let’s just please not pick and choose what we’re going to believe and enforce, as if the bible was a sort of smorgasbord of ethics for the morally indecisive.
@ Laughing Collie 94:
First, I never said I was believing or enforcing anything. I was explaining beliefs I once held, as well as beliefs I know others hold. I admit I touched on something similar.
Second, I never said I was picking and choosing what I believe out of the Bible. This was a point I failed to come back to. My thought on the Bible is that God would protect his word such that the proper books would be included and accepted by all. Therefore, what is included in the Bible would be the word of God. I apologize that I didn’t finish my thought correctly, but I’d just woken up and was in a hurry.
Third, I was not justifying actions of the right or the left. As stated before, I was trying to explain beliefs.
@82 Lacey Some modern studies suggest that one of the triggers of homosexuality is population pressure. These studies are part of a modern genetics movement that not only study what genes people have, but which of them are expressed. A great many genes are only turned on in the presence of particular stimuli. Overpopulated areas tend to have a higher percentage of homosexuality. The more living older siblings a child has, and the closer together their ages are, the higher the odds are of that child being homosexual. In nature, this could serve to protect a population with a temporary surfeit of food from overpopulating to the point of causing its own death when that period of plenty is gone. If a population is too large it can completely strip an area during a time of famine and cause the extinction of that species in a given area. Part of why I find this interesting is it makes all the efforts of people trying to find a ‘gay gene’ so they can create a ‘cure’ an utter waste of time, since it would be a gene that everyone possessess. Unfortunately, once they realize this, they’ll instead start working on a way to suppress the gene.
@86 Andy My personal favorite way of deciding whether something is a sin is based off the Wiccan Rede: An it harm none, does as thou wilt. I simplify the question to ‘Who gets hurt?’ If I can’t convince myself that anyone is hurt, then I consider it to have no inherent sinfulness. I’m not a Wiccan, I just like the rule because its simplicity removes all of the rules lawyering and fiddly bits that get in the way of seeing the bigger picture. Plus, it combines well with the laws of almost every faith.
Andy @95
I re-read my comment, and you’re right — it does sound like I’m accusing you of picking and choosing from the bible. My apologies: I was sort of lamenting in general, and didn’t wish to infer at all that I thought you in particular were doing that. It was courteous of you to not flame me in response; thank you.
Andy,
I was taught in my EXTREMELY conservative religious schooling that homosexuality, as described in the Torah, was only commanded to be wrong because it was a contemporary practice of idolaters. That is to say “homosexuality is not wrong” but going and fucking the priests of a particular temple IS WRONG. This is in keeping with the relatively historical nature of the Torah in general.
Meh. I think Orthodox Jews still sometimes have a problem with homosexuals… but most Jews don’t.
I find it extremely offensive when people say that homosexuals can’t be in love with their partner (it’s just lust) — but I find no problem with someone saying “that’s a morally bad thing, but I don’t judge.”
Laughing Collie,
Gotta disagree with you on the pick and choose your own bible thing.
If Jefferson can do it, it’s gotta be fun! (he scrubbed any mention of Jesus’ divinity).
Honestly, Jews take the Torah to have over 600 mitzvot (good deeds), and we don’t sweat it so much if someone does a sin. G-d judges us each year, after all, not every single second.
Miako @99
Regarding not picking and choosing from the bible, I should have been clearer, sorry. People can, as far as I’m concerned, pick and choose all they want from the religious or secular text of their preference. What bothers me is what I perceive as religious hypocrisy, i.e. to viciously persecute those who go against certain bible injunctions, while turning a blind eye to the biblical injunctions in the same chapters which you yourself (generalized you, of course) are going against.
Also, which Jefferson are you referring to?
Frankly, I prefer the Jewish attitudes towards their holy book, to the Christian ones. From the reading I’ve done, the Jews believe in rational and reasonably argued interpretation of the texts, rather than rigid dogma about their supposed inerrancy. I won’t even get into the issue of whether the oral traditions of a bunch of nomadic goatherders should be considered a suitable template for modern-day living.